Patina is not the Holy Grail of vintage watch buying
By The Prodigal Fool, published on 17 June 2010
The web is littered with watch blogs. Few of them are any good. One that is good – very good indeed – is Hodinkee. We’re huge fans of the work Ben and his team do over there, unearthing the most interesting, important and unusual vintage watches for sale today. They’ve got a good eye and excellent taste. More often than not, they are spot on.
But occasionally we disagree with them.
Last week, Ben posted an opinion piece about the appeal of great patina in the world of vintage Rolex. If you missed it, head on over and have a read. We’ll wait.
Back? OK, so here’s our problem: much as we love the look of a vintage watch, the inimitable character than only the years can instil in a timepiece, we simply cannot accept the idea that aging of any kind – as long as it is uniform – should be valued and specifically sought out, irrespective of what it does to the overall look of the watch . This strikes us as collecting gone made.
There’s a very interesting comment on Ben’s original post. Dean Grant Baker says:
“Patina”? Really? C’mon; Let’s call it what it truly is: Cancer.
What fool would buy a beaten-up, rusted-out, over- bleached watch?
Now, let us say straight off the bat, we don’t agree with this. Patina – some patina – is what gives vintage watches their charm, their individuality. But Baker does have a point: much as serious collectors don’t like to admit it, what they call “patina” is simply the effects of age, it’s what in any other form of collecting – be it art, furniture or even cars – you would seek to remedy, to counter.
Where are we going with this? Well, let’s look at it this way. Most women we know thought Jack Nicholson got better and more attractive as he grew older. The effects of age – a few additional wrinkles, an inch or two on the waist – merely served to increase his appeal. They reinforced his confident demeanour and world-weary persona. Oh yes, the ladies swooned at Jack first in Easy Rider but loved him even more fifteen years and a few pounds later in Terms of Endearment. Hell, Jack was still blowing skirts up as he hurtled towards his 60s in films like A Few Good Men, Wolf and even As Good As It Gets. Everyone loves Jack. But we can all agree that, by now, even Jack could do with turning back the clock a decade or so.
Patina for its own sake, patina at the expense of everything else should not be the Holy Grail of vintage watch buying. Patina is a just a grand term to describe the effects of age on a timepiece. Sometimes, on the right face, in the right quantity, patina can have a tremendously positive impact. Sometimes, on the wrong face or when left unchecked for too long, the impact is wholly negative.
It’s ironic that Ben should mention his 5512 in his post because we’ve featured his watch on The Guide and, to our eyes, that’s a perfect example of patina that really enhances the look, character and individuality of a piece. The aging on the face gently reminds you of the history of the watch and subtly draws it out from the rank and file Submariners. This is Jack at his old, lady-killing, Witches of Eastwick best.
The red submariner that Ben raved about in his post last week, however, has gone way beyond Witches of Eastwick and is squarely in About Schmidt territory. Hell, it’s about ready for The Bucket List. The markers are far too yellow, the bezel is far too faded and the hints of rust gently peppering the case don’t do anything for the overall look. No, patina here has gone way, way too far.
We love patina in moderation. Our vintage Navitimer 806 and Speedmaster 321 for instance are both gently kissed by the years and we love them for it. But when a watch has been ravaged by time, let’s call it what it is: over the hill.
While we’re mixing movies with watches in this rather odd, unholy cocktail, we may as well leave the last word to Indiana Jones, a man who famously went on a Grail quest himself:
It’s not the years, honey. It’s the mileage.
Patina is not the Holy Grail of vintage watch buying
The web is littered with watch blogs. Few of them are any good. One that is good – very good indeed – is Hodinkee. We’re huge fans of the work Ben and his team do over there, unearthing the most interesting, important and unusual vintage watches for sale today. They’ve got a good eye and [...]
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9 Responses to “Patina is not the Holy Grail of vintage watch buying”
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Hey, Noodlefish, it would seem trite and self-serving for me to agree with you agreeing with me but what I would say is that your approval rating currently stands at 5 vs 0. More than Obama can manage at the moment…
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My compliments for this article! It put a smile on my face, reading about a typical watch aficionado’s discussion.
When i saw ads for vintage Submariners with a spider-web dial or a leopard dial…. That was enough to realise that i’m slightly shocked by mix of powerful marketing and the urge to collect something special. .-
Thanks for the compliment Frank. Say, I notice you’re based in The Netherlands. Would you be interested in joining us for the first ever Prodigal Meetup? A bunch of us are meeting up in Paris to visit ABP, then lunching at one of the capital’s most famous and old brasseries. Lots of watch chat guaranteed…
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Gentlemen,
A well written response, indeed. I certainly do not encourage collectors to buy dilapidated examples of vintage timepieces, but I do encourage them to buy examples that are as original as possible. A watch such as this Red 1680 is, as a mutual friend said on twitter, ” like a fine wine, only a connoisseur would appreciate it,” and I tend to agree with that. If one spends much time on the Vintage Rolex Forum, or around any serious collector, he or she will know just how important deeply faded markers and a grey-fat number bezel insert really are. I am not encouraging the use of such terminology as “spider dial,” etc as a method to create value where there is none, but a “tropical dial” (ie., one that has faded to a light brown) is indeed a valuable attribute in a vintage watch and one people do pay a premium for. In fact, I have a friend here who has dedicated his life to watches as an expert at a prestigious auction house, and he only buys vintage sport models if they have tropical dials. He has turned down NOS examples of the average Prodigal Fool’s grail because, well, they just look too new, and what’s the point? If you want a new Submariner, I can point you in the direction of the Tourneau Time Machine.
Also, in my brief diatribe I did not indicate that I believed patina to be paramount to any other factor in buying a watch; provenance, case condition, etc for example are just as meaningful. I do, however, believe that a nice patina can add the aesthetic appeal of a watch greatly, which ultimately dictates how happy someone will be wearing the piece day to day. I happen to know the man who ended up buying the Red Sub in question (sold all of 15 minutes after we posted – go hodinkee!) and his reactions to the condition after wearing it for the weekend were these:
“I had been looking at Red Subs for years, but as soon as I saw this example on Hodinkee, I knew it was the one….it really is a perfectly aged watch, I love it”.
So, how can you argue with a man who has been looking at examples of Red Submariner for literally years, who did indeed buy this watch, and is thrilled with the markers you claim are too yellow, the bezel you claim is too light, and the case you claim to be rusted? Perhaps it comes down to personal choice, but to me, a watch like this has boatloads more character than any watch with less weathered appearances. Also, you make mention of my own 5512 and show a photograph of the watch the way it looked when I bought it. It doesn’t look like that any more. I have replaced the modern factory bezel insert with a fat numeral, faded beauty, from the ealry 1970s that I believe makes this watch much more meaningful. Sure the fade isn’t as dark as on the 1680, but it has a different personality because of it. http://www.hodinkee.com/storage/DSC_0141.jpg
Also, something that should be mentioned…forays into deep patina are something that some collectors need to work towards. Would I buy this deeply faded Red Sub as my first and only vintage watch? Probably not. Would I buy it now, after years of collecting and with an existing aresenal of vintage timepieces? Absolutely. This brings to me the obvious note that, like everything else in life, the level of patina on a vintage watch comes down to personal choice. Most if not all Rolex nuts look for some level of deep fading, but if you prefer something a bit lighter, than so be it. A watch like this Red Sub isn’t about making anybody happy but yourself, and in this case, I happen to know the new owner of this watch is nothing less than thrilled, so how can you argue with that?
Perpetually yours,
Ben
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Enjoyable post and discussion, thanks.
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Tim Jackson
19 August 2010
Great discussion, I think that the “patina” questions and the ramifications for each buyer also stem from that old chestnut, the emotional aspect of why we buy???
A “tropical” dial suggests a life of a watch lived outside in the sun where arguably it ought to live, being used for it’s specific purpose, rather than on the wrist of most owners, lacking a tan at the office…
I think many of us lust in one way or another for a “Different lifestyle than the one we are living” at times, and this “Tropical patina” feeds right into that, in much the same way most Brits (myself included) enjoy the thought of being 007 at one time or another. Who doesn’t like the thought of gently rocking in a hammock on some breezy tropical island after a dive to catch dinner, that is now being grilled on an open fire!
Then again buyers of these pieces may well have their own reasons, I don’t think there is right or wrong here. Now the analogy with cars, furniture & art is an interesting one, as “sun damage” is most undesirable in all cases…food for thought and more discussion I’m sure!
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I think that’s a very good point and not often stated. We buy watches because of the lifestyle we aspire to have.
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Tim Jackson
26 August 2010
And as an aside, that is why the marketing mavens of the big watch brands have enormous budgets with which to create “needs and wants” on an emotional level that strikes a chord with buyers. This “aspirational acquisition” is almost allways justified with features and benefits, that back up the idea…at the end of the day, finding the emotional triggers of potential buyers, is a marketers job.
Noodlefish
17 June 2010
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the watch world that patina = more $$. I agree with your post, that a degree of wear and tear is tolerable, even desirable on certain watches. But the love for this crazy-paving goes too far, IMHO. There were plenty of dial manufactures whose dials have aged terribly – even terminally – but they are not desirable. This ageing is no more than a happy mutant. It’s desirable as an indication of the original nature of the dial. But in and of itself? Not sure. Sorry for the rant… and don’t even get me started on “wabi sabi”. Aesthetics and “WISdom” don’t appear to mix at all… just an excuse to describe tattiness in flattering terms. Sorry. Need coffee.